The Real Reason Nobody "Wins" in Divorce

Think family court is about finding justice and punishing your ex? Think again. In this eye-opening episode of No One Dies From Divorce, I sit down with my partner in crime and senior managing attorney, Gabi Jones, to reveal the harsh legal realities that often shatter our clients' expectations.

As experienced advocates in family law, Gabi and I explain why seeking revenge or "fairness" during a divorce usually leads to emotional burnout and financial strain. We unpack the profound psychological impact of splitting a household and explore why perfectly rational, successful people often make terrible decisions when operating in survival mode. Giving up control to a judge means letting a stranger decide your future—so how do you navigate the legal system without losing yourself?

Key Takeaways from this Episode:

• The Justice Myth: Why the legal system is built to divide lives and assets, not to punish bad behavior or validate your emotions.
• Survival Mode Mistakes: How trauma, fear, and a lack of control drive people to make poor, reactive legal choices.
• Reclaiming Your Power: Proven strategies to let go of the things you cannot control and confidently rebuild your life on your own terms.

Tune in to hear the specific cases that fundamentally changed how Gabi and I practice law, and learn how you can navigate your own split with clarity and confidence.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Welcome to another episode of No One Dies from Divorce. And I can't tell you how excited I am for this series for us to really help and put a lot of our expertise into play when it comes to going through divorce. Today's episode is called The Divorce That Changed Everything. Not just the divorce that changed that client's life, but the cases that changed us as lawyers. And I'm here with my partner in crime and one of my senior managing attorneys here at Coyle Law, Gabby Jones. Let me just tell you about Gabby, because she is, as well as a lawyer, she's also a private garden at Lium that represents children. And she is a passionate advocate for families navigating some of the hardest moments of their lives. She graduated from the University of Oregon School of Law and began her career providing low-cost legal services to vulnerable communities across Utah. And outside the courtroom, she's a mom, she's a traveler, she loves escape rooms, and she is a proud Harry Potter and Jane Austen fan. So, Gabby, I love you, and I'm just grateful you're here doing this podcast with me. So welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_00 1:20

I'm excited.

SPEAKER_02 1:21

I'm excited to do this with you and to hear some good stories. You know, one of the things that I wanted to start is people think divorce is about dividing assets or signing papers, but you and I know it's just not. Divorce is a lot about fear, it's about control or not having control. Sometimes it's about survival. And when someone's entire life feels like it's collapsing, even incredible, smart, successful people can make decisions they never imagined they would. And today we're talking about the divorce cases that changed us. Um, I think Gabby, you being here, understand this more than a lot because we choose every day to do family law because of the fact that we get to help people through some of the most hard situations in their life.

SPEAKER_00 2:12

I started doing family law because I really like people. I like working with humans. I didn't want to do contract law. I didn't want to work for corporations, I wanted to work with human people. And I think there's a common misconception with our clients and with people who haven't gone through a divorce, that you walk into a divorce and you expect justice. You expect quick, fast results that are going to be fair. And what people actually get is kind of a sluggish, slow bureaucracy. I think it's fair, right? We all think that the court system is fair, that judges are going to base their opinions on logic, that it will be quick. I mean, we get clients, Jill, who walk in and are like, yeah, can I get divorced this month? Can I get divorced in three months? And that's not what happens for some of our clients. For some of our clients, we can get that done, but for some, we just can't. And we do get a lot of clients, like I said, who want justice, right? Your divorce is ending for a reason. Something happened, or something has been happening for a very long time, and they want their day in court. They think that they're gonna go, we're gonna go into the court, the judge is gonna see what's happening, they're gonna catch on immediately that the other person's not a great person and that they'll get what they want. That if the other person cheated or lied or did something wrong, hurt them in the past or hurt other people, that the court's gonna punish them for it. And I always tell clients that the family law system isn't for punishment. That's what the criminal court is for. That's not what the family law courts are for. Family law courts are for helping people divide their lives. It's not pretty. Oftentimes there's not justice. We're just trying to help people move on, right? Which I think can be so empowering, but the process itself can be really hard. We also get a lot of clients who come in thinking, you know, okay, I'm gonna tell the judge what's been going on. And if I'm just the better parent, I'll I'll win, right? The judge is gonna see that I care about the kids more, that I'm a better parent, and that's not always the case. Then we file for the divorce. And what most people are unprepared for is that it's a bureaucracy. You file and you have to wait. There's a lot of delays in family law. Some of those are the other party, a lot of those are the court, the court process. I mean, it takes months to get in on a hearing. It can take months or even a year to get in for a trial. The other thing that I think clients aren't really prepared for is when you are doing a divorce, you're splitting one household into two. And then you add on top of that all these fees for lawyers and sometimes other experts and specialists. And so there's a lot of financial pressure that goes along with the divorce. And there can be an equity in who has the money. And the longer a divorce goes on, the more that that pressure is felt.

SPEAKER_02 5:13

We use the word fair. We hear people say, I want fairness. I, or like you said, I want justice. I'm always quick to correct them and say there is nothing fair about divorce and there is no justice. It is just like you said, just a process of us ensuring that we make sure that they get through the process as, you know, obviously quickly and amicably as possible.

SPEAKER_00 5:41

Well, and I think a lot of people also want control over the process. So they think it's going to be fair. And what's fair to them, right? They already think in their brain that they know what that is. You know, we're dealing with a system of other humans. So you have judges who have their own preconceived biases, you have court clerks, you have the other counsel, you have other experts, and we all come in with biases. And so what seems fair to you may not seem fair to someone else. And giving up that control to a judge to make decisions about your life, about what the judge thinks is fair under the law is really hard. It causes a lot of uncertainty. And I think that's the number one thing that a lot of people don't understand. When you want to litigate your divorce, because we do settle quite a few divorces, and divorces that settle quickly and amicably, I think lead to better results overall. But a lot of people, they want justice, they want fairness, they want the judge to hear their story, which I think is fair. But what people don't understand is you are then allowing a complete stranger control over your life. Things like parent time, and that can mean things like when you pick up and drop off your child, right? What extracurriculars do you have to take your child to? And so it's really hard for people to give up this sense of control. And that leads to just, I think you uncover during the divorce process a lot of underlying emotional and unresolved issues.

SPEAKER_02 7:19

I think that's really important to understand because there's an emotional reality to divorce, and then there's a legal reality. The emotional reality is that you're going through grief. I mean, you literally have to process your divorce just as if you were processing a loss, betrayal, humiliation, panic, fear of losing children, fear of financial ruin, fear of being replaced. I mean, these are all the emotional reality that these clients are going through. But us as lawyers, I mean, then there's the legal reality, right? Evidence matters. Judges have limited time. And the more things that you pile on to try to get, you know, your story out there, the less they're going to hear. Courts.

SPEAKER_00 8:03

No, you're so right. Judges have hundreds and hundreds, maybe even thousands of cases. And you and I have seen, we'll go into court hearings where there's six other cases set to be heard in one hour. Judges don't have a lot of time.

SPEAKER_02 8:19

And I always say, like, if you want to throw the entire kitchen sink into a pleading, eventually the court is just going to stop listening. Like, it is more important for you to put in to the court exactly the most important things for them to hear because the courts can't fix emotional wounds. And sometimes we do the get that client that feels like they want their day in court because for some reason that day will kind of heal an emotional reality. Does that make sense? And do you find that sometimes it just makes it worse? Yes, because they're always disappointed. Because you go into court, you get your day in court, and the judge says to the attorney, you get three minutes, Miss Coyle. Oh, I've already read your pleadings, Miss Jones. I don't want to hear this. That happens all the time where we go into court because we know that it's important for our clients to get that day in court and they just don't get it. But then also, there's been times we've gone into court and we have a good solid case. I think, I think Gabby and I are both on the same page. We don't take frivolous cases to court. We're very good at um helping our clients understand what makes sense to go to court. So a lot of times when we walk into court, we do feel a sense of, you know, our clients deserving to be there. But we sometimes get it wrong. The judge, the commissioners say no or the judges don't agree with us. And sometimes to that point, they get even to the level of they'll they'll make it seem like we should have done something differently, which is not in my mind, I think appropriate or helps the situation at all.

SPEAKER_00 10:02

I think that goes back to like the judge is a complete stranger who doesn't know your case. Correct. And a lot of times when you're litigating, the other party's gonna come in and they're gonna say things that, you know, you may not be prepared to hear, right? I mean, litigation gets really nasty. And then you also deal with that aspect of judges have their own biases. And so we may know what the facts are, but whether the judges hear and understand that over all of the noise, you know, we have no control over that.

SPEAKER_02 10:32

And sometimes you go into court and they say, I'm not gonna hear this today. I'm gonna kick it down the road, or I'm going to order something else. And it it can be a lot I tell my clients. It's the wild, wild west. You can have the best set of facts. I'm going to just brag a little bit. Coil law does some of the best preparation for litigation out there. We train all of our attorneys to be very good litigators because we do high conflict, high asset cases. But at the end of the day, we can be just as prepared. We can be smart, we can be strategic. But at the end of the day, you're gonna probably walk away feeling like winning legally, but still feeling devastatingly emotionally.

SPEAKER_00 11:15

I think that's a really important point for us to talk about because I have walked out of hearings where I've gotten my client 80, 90% of what we asked for, and then we walk out and they still like you still feel like you lost. You walk out of court and on paper it seems like you won. But I hear this a lot and I will say it in divorce, there's no winning. You walk out and you're emotionally exhausted from having to sit through that process. You've now spent thousands of dollars, and you never get exactly what you want. And so it still feels devastating emotionally.

SPEAKER_02 11:51

Yeah. We see this in our our profession all the time that there are very, very smart, capable people that are getting divorced that make absolute terrible decisions.

SPEAKER_00 12:04

Some of my absolute favorite clients are very successful men and women who I am so impressed by. Like I couldn't do the things that they do, right? But we when you get into a divorce, there's all of these things that have already happened prior to the divorce, right? Our clients don't come to us as blank slates. They come to us with trauma responses, maybe even medical or mental health issues. During a divorce, a lot of my clients don't sleep right, they don't eat right, right?

SPEAKER_02 12:36

They're they're literally in survival mode, a lot of them.

SPEAKER_00 12:39

Yes, I think that's a great way to put it is they're in survival mode. And when you're in survival mode, you know, the logic reasoning part of your brain turns off, and you are literally just trying to get through. And when you're in that survival mode, a lot of our clients become really obsessed with their case. And so they're they're constantly their whole lives become rehashing things that have happened, rereading texts, looking at what the other party is posting on social media. And what that means is they're constantly activated, they're constantly sitting in this stew of bad hormones, right? And they can't calm down. And we react emotionally instead of strategically, right? And as lawyers, that's I think a number one reason why you hire a lawyer is you want someone who's not going to react emotionally, and you want someone who's gonna help you think strategically while you're going through this. And some of the ways that these really brilliant, smart, wonderful people that we work with who are going through this, right, they're activated, they're in this survival mode. And so, you know, they'll they'll say, Well, we need to file motion after motion. I can't compromise on anything, right? We get into, and I say we, because I really do empathize so much with our clients, but our clients get into a mindset where it's like, I've been going through this now for months and months, and I've been living in this hell for so long. I can't give them anything. It's not gonna be fair, it's not gonna be just. And then we also get into this mindset where our clients are like, well, now we have to win, right? But it's like winning, we already talked about there's no winning. Winning is being done and being able to move on with your life. I love talking to clients after we've done the divorce because I always tell our clients, you don't know who you're gonna be or what's gonna happen after this. But it's hard to see that in the moment, right? And you're also dealing with things like your friends and your family chining in. Or I, you know, we've had cases, Jill, that are pretty public. And so then people get, you know, stuff on social media or they get talked to by their boss, right? And so all of this just compounds in into people doing things that they later regret. Yeah. And one thing that I do want to talk about is a lot of our clients don't, I think, even realize they're not making an active decision to do these things, right? So something that we see very often is sending the other party a nasty text, or you receive a nasty text and you respond nastily, right? Or we do get a lot of clients that are like, I know that they've been cheating on me. I have to find that out. And so they'll start necessarily like following the other person on social media or they'll have their friends follow that person, right?

SPEAKER_02 15:31

I think one of the hardest things we deal with a lot is when somebody comes in and they're like, My spouse is having an affair, whether it's physically or emotional affair, and they're like, you know, how could they do this? They're in a very, very trauma response mode because clearly they have had trauma with the fact that they found out that their spouse of so many years is not being faithful to them. And then, you know, us having to talk to them about how, even though this is very emotionally hard to them, it's most likely not going to legally impact their case. We have to do that a lot. And obviously that's really, really hard for people to hear in the beginning. But I think, like you said, once they start going through the steps of the trauma and the their head starts to clear a little bit, they understand the the reasons behind it.

SPEAKER_00 16:26

I think that's a really important role of an attorney. We are not therapists, but we can help ground our clients by telling them sometimes really unfortunate realities. And so we will get clients, like you said, who are like, they cheated on me. And unfortunately, in Utah, adultery, cheating, whether it's physical or emotional, doesn't have a huge impact on a divorce. We also get a lot of clients, and I think this is, you know, a really sad thing that happens in family law, where it's like, well, my spouse wasn't a 50-50 parent, and now they're asking for 50-50 time. But in Utah, the standard is that we give parents a chance, right? There there is a presumption or there's kind of a bias toward getting close to that 50-50 time. And so, you know, helping our clients kind of be like, I understand that that's not fair, but it is the reality, and we have to accept that reality. And what can we do to maybe get? I like to talk about my client to my clients about let's talk about what we can control versus what we can't control.

SPEAKER_01 17:34

Can't control. I love that.

SPEAKER_00 17:36

Right. And then and then we can make a list of like, okay, we can control these things. So what can we do in our settlement proposal or in our le litigation strategy to help make the most of the things we can control, right? Which with our clients is things like how do we react to things, right? Well, you can take a minute and and not respond to the text or not respond nastily, right? We can take a minute and not share that story on social media. We can take a minute and, you know, maybe give our ex the benefit of the doubt, which it's it's a process and it's really hard and it's really awful. Um, and there are some situations where safety matters, like safety matters, and we, you know, you don't give that person the benefit of the doubt, but working with our clients on those really hard things is important.

SPEAKER_02 18:29

I want to be a fly on the wall with you because I feel like we are very different. Gabby could be like a life coach. She like is so inspiring, and I'm just like telling my clients, this is how it is.

SPEAKER_01 18:43

Like, we're gonna get through this because you're strong enough. Like the way we we say the same thing, but we could approach it in different ways. I love it so much.

SPEAKER_00 18:52

It's it's funny you say that because I see you that way, right? Like, you know, this. I'll bring you clients that I'm like, I've talked to them and I am not getting through. And then you, I always say this. You have like a magic, like a magic way where you can explain something to someone so clearly, and then be like, oh yeah, I you're right.

SPEAKER_02 19:09

I can't, I'm their biggest cheerleader. You know, these these people, I mean, the next thing I wanted to talk about was the role of fear and control because a lot of our clients won't admit it, um, especially the men, but they are in a state of fear. It is really scary to, like you said, not know what's going on. And I love that you tell your clients like, we we don't need to deal with the unknown. I al I call them what ifs. Like, we're not gonna deal with the what-ifs, we're gonna deal with what we know right now. But both you and I are very good at this is helping people recognize the fear and then realize, help them empower themselves to know that they can get through this. I'm very big on helping people understand that divorce does not need to be this shameful subject. So many people get divorced. Everybody knows somebody that got divorced. And if we would change the perspective from being, oh, I'm so ashamed that I, you know, my marriage failed or whatnot, or what are people gonna think about me? But change the perspective to, yeah, I got divorced. And you know what I'm doing with that? I'm using it as a platform to become the best version of myself. The best version I was never able to be in my marriage because of whatever circumstances of that. If we were to just change the way we look at it, divorce all of a sudden becomes a movement. It becomes a place where people become better people, better humans, better parents. I say that all the time. Like you, okay, you weren't a great parent in the marriage. Well, this is the time to step up and show why you can be that. And a lot of times, I just want to clarify a lot of people times people aren't, it's not because they're bad parents, it's because one parent has taken the role of being the parent that the other person just checks out or doesn't think that they need to step up to that role. But but, anyways, I just love that. And I do. I think that the fear is it's just taking that control, taking it one step at a time, knowing that the outcome of a divorce, the lessons you get are that healing matters, strategy matters when it comes to how we're going to navigate this, not necessarily legally, but strategy. How are you gonna manage this throughout your life? Emotional regulation matters. Protecting kids matter. And then knowing you will be okay, your kids will be okay is really, really important.

SPEAKER_00 21:41

I think that's really important. And it's it's hard when you're going through divorce and you're in that survival mode and there's so much you can't control, right? You get stuck in this fog and you can't see the future. And and I'm sure you do this too. But what I like to talk to my clients about is well, let's not look at next year or even the next. Two years. Let's look at the next five or six or 10 years. What do you want your relationship with your kids to look like then? And how how can that be better than what it is now going through the divorce, right? We get a lot of, we get a lot of clients who have waited so long to go through a divorce because they're so scared. Whether that's, you know, like I get a lot of clients who are men who are scared about what it will mean for them financially to go through a divorce. And we get a lot of clients who are women. And this might just be because we live in Utah, right? Um, but we get a lot of women who are scared about what that's gonna mean for their relationship with their kids, right? And and what I like to tell clients is you don't have the control now, and it's really scary. And going through this process is awful. But once we're done, that other person's not gonna be able to tell you what to do. That other person's not gonna be spending your money, they're not gonna be, you know, controlling your finances. And when your kids are with you, they are with you, and you get to make that decision about what kind of parent you want to be. And I think that's really healing for people.

SPEAKER_02 23:05

I agree. I love that so much. And I wanted to ask more of a personal question, people getting to know you. Like, what what case has fundamentally changed how you practice family law?

SPEAKER_00 23:18

There have been a few cases, and right now I'm thinking about a lot of really negative cases. I've had some hard, hard cases where people have almost died or people have died, and and those ones really stick with you. But I do have a couple of cases right now that I think have really changed me. Um, you know, I just settled a case yesterday that had been going on for three and a half years. And the client on the phone yesterday was crying. Like we were, I almost started crying. We were just crying because it was such a relief after three and a half years to finally be done. And the reason that we fought so hard and for so long was because there was a child and there were some serious custody and parent time concerns. And and it, I think it was worth it. So I've had a few cases. You know this. When I first started at COIL, I came from nonprofit work. And nonprofit work is very much just helping people understand and navigate, right? They don't have a lot of money, they don't have a lot of time, right? Because they're out there trying to earn money and take care of their families. And then when I started with COIL in private practice, it's it's much more like now, you know, I'm working with people who have more support and more security. And and we get to dive into issues a little bit more. I I've had a couple of cases. There's one recently where I had this client who did want to control everything. She was so afraid. You know, her ex was making up a lot of things that weren't true, right? We were fighting a lot against really untrue allegations. And over the time that I've been working with her, she's really she's gone to therapy. She's really worked on herself. And now we're at a place where she will acknowledge to me, okay, Gabby, this is really scary. This is really scary. I'm really worried. I feel the impulse to need to control this. And I can see her in real time going through that process and thinking through and and processing things. And that's really, I think, changed the way I practice because it shows me that we actually change our clients. I hope for the better, right? Because this person's a different person than we started together. Start singing wicked. I'm so cheesy. Those cases changed me, right? Like being able to see someone in real time learning and changing, and these are hard things, right? Changing parts of your personality, that's really impactful.

SPEAKER_02 25:52

And Gabby, this is why you're one of the best. I mean, not only do I get to work with one of my best friends every day, but literally I'm one of the best attorneys in Utah. Trust me, I know some of the cases that she settled. She has absolutely saved and changed families for the better because of her advocacy and what she does. I just want to have a closing takeaway on this because this has been really, really so good. Divorce can feel like destruction of everything familiar. But for so many people, it becomes the first time they truly can reclaim themselves. And Gabby and I want to literally tell you, you will get through this. And when you are on this other side, you can think, I did it. I went through the refiners fire and look what I am now. Gabby, you're just absolutely a joy. We are so lucky to have you and for the amazing advocacy that you do day in, day out.

SPEAKER_00 26:48

Thanks. I do just want to put a plug in. Jill did write a book called No One Dies from Divorce. I read that book when I first started practicing, and I have really tried to implement that into the practice, but it's mostly for clients, people going through divorce. And it's really just a nice reminder of here's some things that you might go through, and it's going to be okay. You'll get through it. And so I like what you said. And divorce can be hard, and we don't have control, and it can be emotional. Sometimes it's necessary, right? And good attorneys are here to help walk you through it. But sometimes also settling and compromising and and resolving things is also necessary.

SPEAKER_02 27:31

Just remember, divorce isn't the end. This is just where you begin to take your power back. Oh, what a great episode! Another episode of No One Dies from Divorce. Make sure you subscribe to our YouTube channel. Check us out online and all of our Instagram. Thank you, Gabby. Thanks for joining me today.

SPEAKER_00 27:50

Yeah, thanks, Phil. It's always so nice to talk with you. I'll see you soon.